Which fishing boat?

Engines, Hulls etc..,

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19ft offshore boat

Postby electric eric » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:21 am

lncc,

you might want to read about this 19 ft offshore boat.

http://www.oceanskiffjournal.com/Subscr ... file2.aspx

eric
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Postby lncc » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:20 am

Thank you Eric for the link. It was interesting reading. The fellow brings to surface some nice issues though honestly I don't know how to get another opinion since there seems to be some unwritten agreement among designers not to critique the designs of others, ala "good old boys club".

I'm now leaning towards a standard Tolman Skiff but maybe with his Seabright modification.

The big issue now is if I can afford, in terms of power and performance, to put the wheel house or small cabin so I can stay out of the rain. We'll see.
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Postby teddy » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:51 am

You might want to look at this as well. My current project, a 23 ft Glen-L V-Dory powered with an inline inboard Mazda R2 diesel (surplus) which is supposed to put out 60hp. Accdg to glen-l it can be powered by a 30 hp outboard.
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Postby lncc » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:27 am

Thanks Teddy for the suggestion. Might I bother you for more pictures? How about starting another thread for your boat. I would be most interested to see it and pick your brain about it. Have you finished it yet? Seems like you have. How does she handle?
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Postby tatoski » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:31 am

Nice boat Teddy. Yeah, please post more pictures maybe at the members' projects.

Your trailer looks heavy duty judging from the hubs beefy construction. Is that a Canter hub? looks 5 studs and look at the beefy rim.

Thanks
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Postby teddy » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:59 pm

lncc,
Havent had a sea trial yet - possibly in two or three weeks. Still finishing the console and t-top and later the painting. Will post pics in projects section.
Tatoski,
The trailer uses surplus isuzu elf rear hub and axle extended using a special steel tube bought in T Alonzo corner Tetuan as recommended by the machine shop. The beefy wheels and axle is in lieu of a double axle called for in the plans.
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Update on my Tolman Seabright skiff in Cebu ...

Postby kengrome » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:01 pm

I'm now leaning towards a standard Tolman Skiff but maybe with his Seabright modification.


Hello lncc63,

I'm sure you know this but it probably bears repeating for those who don't know about the Tolman Seabright Skiff and those who might like to know more ...

I've done a lot of research into small, affordable, economical offshore power boats, and it seems there are very few modern inboard versions of this type of boat available in the world. Renn Tolman's Seabright Skiff is the only one that has actually impressed me. The Tolman Seabright skiff is a very different boat from all the other Tolman Skiffs. The others are outboard powered and their owners typically buy larger engines (sometimes much larger) than specified by Renn Tolman, partly because they overbuild and make their boats too heavy for the smaller engines, but also because the boats will go faster with bigger engines (better for 'hot rod' types).

Unfortunately the faster you run a planing power boat the more fuel you're going to use for every mile or kilometer you run at that high speed. So even though Tolman Skiffs *in general* are lighter and therefore more fuel efficient than many other high-speed planing power boats, they still "suck up the fuel" big time when you take them out onto the water and run them fast. Fortunately the Seabright model breaks the habit of using huge gas guzzling outboard engines on these seaworthy offshore boats. The Seabright model is Renn's first and only inboard powered boat, and it uses a tiny little 20-25 HP inboard engine -- preferably diesel if you want the best fuel economy -- to reach its top speed of 15-20 knots.

When I say "top speed" that's exactly what I mean when talking about tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs no matter who designs or builds them. These boats cannot be overpowered and still run safely. If you overpower a tunnel-stern Seabright skiff it will become "squirrelly" and unsafe until you slow down to its design speed. But when you run at the design speed or less you will have a very nice, predictable and safe handling boat in nearly all conditions!

The other (non-Seabright) Tolman Skiffs are all high-speed planing hulls but the Seabright is not. The Seabright model incorporates the unique tunnel-stern hull bottom pioneered decades ago by William Atkin in some of his famous boats. The Tolman Seabright uses the very popular Atkin "Rescue Minor" bottom which is optimized for slow planing or semi-planing speeds of 15-20 knots. Here's a link to learn more about Rescue Minor, and if you're interested in this type of tunnel-stern hull design there are several others on the same web site:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/RescueMinor.html

By the way, two recent videos have been posted online at youtube (just this week) showing the exceptional stability and shallow water performance of the original Rescue Minor. The Tolman Seabright will draft 1-2 inches more than the boat in these videos since it is a bit heavier with its taller sides, but if you like shallow draft in a very seaworthy hull these videos (actually the second one) should give you an idea just how shallow the water can be when running this boat at or near its top speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dgsavf8OMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_D-LilJnMo

Some people will whine about not being able to go 'fast enough' in a boat like the Tolman Seabright, but these folks will likely be Americans who are spoiled by so much excess income over and above their needs that they always have something to complain about. The fact remains that the Tolman Seabright was never designed to pull water skiers or run at high speeds. Instead it is happy to get you there and back safely and securely at *reasonable* speeds -- and often the sea conditions won't allow you to go faster than this anyways.

In my opinion a top speed of 15-20 knots is already fast enough for most people who take a 22 foot boat out onto the open ocean to go fishing for tuna or whatever. It may take a bit longer to get to the fishing grounds and back when compared with a high speed planing power boat, but this boat will do it on 1/5 to 1/10 the fuel too -- and fuel costs a LOT these days!

The big issue now is if I can afford, in terms of power and performance, to put the wheel house or small cabin so I can stay out of the rain. We'll see.


If you can afford a small surplus diesel engine/transmission and run a dry stack exhaust the propulsion system won't cost you anywhere near as much as one of the other Tolman Skiffs -- or most other outboard powered boats for that matter -- so I'm sure you'll be able to afford the wheel house. As far as engines are concerned, you could even go with a multicab engine. Yes they are gas engines but they are also cheap and plentiful, so the extra money you spend on fuel might never add up to the higher purchase price of a small inboard diesel engine. Then again I have never priced small surplus diesel engines, so for all I know they may be even cheaper than the multicab engines (but I doubt it).

I have a 'really good' Toyota gas engine in a owner-type jeepy that I plan to use in my Tolman Seabright skiff. When I started building this boat I planned to export to the USA, but then I had a financial problem and now I cannot afford the expensive new EPA-certified engine (required for the USA), transmission, shipping, etc. So instead of selling the boat to an American in the USA I guess I'm going to keep it, or maybe sell it locally to someone in the Philippines who might want one. All the hard work is finished. The good thing about my keeping it or selling it locally is that I do not have to spend $5000+ on the U.S.-approved engine and transmission, and I do not have to spend $5000 to ship the boat to the USA, and I do not have to go there and sell it personally.

When I first made the decision to keep it myself or sell it locally, I was going to get a surplus multicab engine / transmission for it. After all, they only cost about $400 and they are 30+ HP which is already more than this boat will ever need. But I already have the Toyota engine sitting in a jeepy that I haven't used since I acquired it years ago, so I figure "Why spend more money when I already have an engine?"

:)

Please accept my apologies if it sound like I'm boasting or trying to act like a "know-it-all" about these particular boats. I'm really not, but the fact remains that I built the second Tolman Seabright skiff hull in existence because Renn Tolman invited me to. He wanted someone to build this boat and prove (or disprove) his specifications before he started selling plans commercially. I found his mistakes and corrected them during my construction of this hull, and now he is selling plans. Note that the building instructions for the Tolman Seabright also require the builder to have a copy of his book, since the Seabright plans refer to many things in the book. In other words, the Seabright plans are only part of the plans -- the rest are in the book.

I became one of Renn's book resellers earlier this year too, because I figured why not help him sell some books since I'm building his newest boat -- that's why I have a half-dozen copies of "Tolman Alaskan Skiffs" books at my place in Cebu in case anyone wants one. They are not cheap as far as book costs are concerned, but they do have the complete plans for Renn's other boats -- the Standard, Widebody and Jumbo -- and besides, the cost of the book is a "drop in the bucket" when compared to the overall cost of building and outfitting one of these boats, even in the Philippines where the materials cost so little (compared with the USA that is).

I have three sets of pictures of different stages of construction of this boat on my web site. Here are the links in case anyone is interested:

http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright01/
http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright02/
http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright03/

I've done more work on it since righting the hull, but I don't have any more pictures at the moment. I'm still willing to sell it too, for a bargain price since I no longer plan to export it. Anyone interested is welcome to come over and have a look, my place about 1.5 hours south of Cebu City and I'll provide clear directions to those who email or PM me.

Sorry for the long post, but I get really excited when I notice people talking about these boats -- especially people in the Philippines! Tolman Skiffs are super-popular with backyard boat builders in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest USA, but few people outside the USA know much about them. That's why I'm surprised to find anyone in the Philippines thinking about building one. What a pleasant surprise!

One of the reasons why I like these particular boats so much is because I think they are probably the best 'modern' boat in the world for Philippine offshore fishing work with their super-economical low power engines and efficient semi-planing hull designs. Their extreme shallow draft helps a lot too since many fishermen run their boat up onto the beach in this country, and beaching this boat will be a simple task since it requires no more than 6-8 inches of draft. Oh, and did I mention that the propeller and rudder are fully protected by a hefty 'shoe' that runs beneath them from the aft end of the box keel all the way to the bottom of the rudder post -- to insure that no damage will come to these components when beaching or bouncing on a reef?

Yes, in my opinion Renn Tolman has combined many valuable features into one great boat. Too bad I don't have the money to export mine because it would probably fetch $30,000 in the USA fully finished and ready to use. Oh well, there's always next time, right?

:)

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
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www.bagacayboatworks.com
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Postby pinoypiper » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:36 pm

Hi Ken,

Welcome to the new forum. Great post! very informative. I've been watching the progress of the seabright attentively and it's great that one has actually been built in the Philippines (hull #2 at that).

You are now the record holder on this forum for the longest post. 1,717 words!. :lol:

Looking forward to more of your posts, please post more pics of the seabright as soon as you have it. A buddy of mine is also looking for an offshore fisher and he's looking at the Tolman jumbo. once he sees your inboard seabright i'm sure he'll change his mind.

Cheers/Roy
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Postby kengrome » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:23 pm

Hi Ken, welcome to the new forum. Great post! very informative. I've been watching the progress of the seabright attentively and it's great that one has actually been built in the Philippines (hull #2 at that).

Hi Roy, thanks for the welcome. I was here earlier this year or so I thought, but my account must have been deleted (or maybe I just don't remember my previous username)... so I created a new account to post my reply in this thread.

You are now the record holder on this forum for the longest post. 1,717 words!. :lol:

That figures. My father always said I was "long-winded". Hopefully it was not all worthless drivel ... :)

Looking forward to more of your posts, please post more pics of the seabright as soon as you have it.

It may be a while, my digicam seems to be resisting my recent efforts to get it to work. Hopefully it will stop playing games with me and begin taking pictures again one of these days.

A buddy of mine is also looking for an offshore fisher and he's looking at the Tolman Jumbo. Once he sees your inboard seabright I'm sure he'll change his mind.

For rich folks who couldn't care less how much gas they use, a Jumbo would be a nice boat I guess ... but I still prefer the safety and security of having the engine INSIDE the boat with me, rather than hanging off the transom. I just do not like the idea of having all that weight positioned so far away from the middle of the boat, nor do I like the idea of hanging over the transom trying to fix it when it won't start or run properly. For my money I will take a sweet little inboard diesel any day of the week, especially when I'm not a speed demon on the water anyways.

From the description Renn gave in his introduction to his new Seabright Skiff it seems he does not appreciate the poor mileage of his own Jumbo. You and others may be interested in the introduction to Renn's Tolman Seabright plans because it offers a clear idea of his motivation and approach to designing this boat. Here it is:

Building the Tolman/Seabright skiff

Introduction

What the world needs is a truly economical planing-hull power boat. Sure, Tolman skiffs are economical compared to other boats in their class due to their relative light weight, but the sad fact is an 18-wheeler running down the highway fully loaded gets better mileage than I can get in my Jumbo skiff. A diesel engine would doubtless make it more efficient, but diesels are not commonly made as outboards, and the usual ways to install them are as outdrives (inboard / outboards), which are very expensive to buy and to maintain, or with conventional straight shaft-and-rudders, which result in boats that are deep draft and difficult to trailer because of a keel or other appendages. Neither drive system appeals to me.

Enter the Seabright skiff. This type was developed by many different builders for fishermen along the New Jersey shore that had to launch over beach due to the scarcity of harbors in the early 1900s. These skiffs used conventional inboard engines (gas in those days) with straight shafts and rudders, but what made them special was that the prop, running in a tunnel, which along with the rudder was placed entirely above the bottom of the hull. Thus these skiffs drew no more water than the hull itself, which because of its flat bottom, was often only inches. The peculiar shape of the stern, with its pod-shaped underbody and cut-away transom, gave these boats a good turn of speed, several times that of displacement-type boats (think sailboats), yet they were more efficient, at least at lower speeds, than conventional planing hulls (like Tolman skiffs, for example).

Perhaps the most famous modern version of a Seabright skiff was made by Robb White of Thomasville, Georgia, for use in the shallow waters of the Florida Panhandle about five years ago (see WoodenBoat Magazine, March/April 2006). His so-called Rescue Minor (the name refers to a Seabright skiff designed by naval architect William Atkin in 1943) draws only 6 inches and powered with a 20 hp Kubota diesel achieves more than 20 mph and 20 mpg. (It should be pointed out each of these numbers drops to less than 20 when the skiff is loaded with more than just the operator.) A large part of his skiff’s super efficiency was doubtless a result of its extremely light weight. Robb built his skiff like a strip-built canoe out of poplar wood cut on his own land.

Furthermore, his skiff, while adequate for his needs and apparently a good sea boat, had very low sides, saving more weight, but the freeboard is too low in for most of us to feel comfortable in. His engine installation employed a belt-drive system which he built himself derived from a garden tiller that eliminated the conventional clutch and reverse gear, a further weight saving. You would have to judge Robb’s effort an extremely successful boat, but his act is a hard one to follow for most of us. Still, it gave me an idea.

What I have done is to take the traditional Seabright skiff underbody and graft it on, so to speak, to a Standard Tolman skiff topsides to give it more seaworthiness and interior volume. In the process I lengthened the Standard skiff from 20 to 22 feet but diminished the beam from 7 to 6 - 6 to reflect the proportions of traditional Seabright skiffs, which were relatively long and slender. In the process I think I have improved the bow by eliminating the hard knuckle of the original skiffs, which tends to make such boats yaw (bow steer) in a following sea. In other words, the bow looks much like that of a typical Tolman skiff, and we know these handle well. The bottom is flat, not veed, and although I have railed against flat bottoms in the past, the Seabright skiff has a feature which is said to mitigate pounding. The aft end of the tunnel has a slight downward curve, which deflects the water coming from the prop with the effect of forcing the bow down. Thus the hull punches through the seas, rather than rising over them and slamming down. (Robb White verified that this principle works.) This bow-down aspect can generate spray, but I have included the usual double sets of spray rails that are so effective on the Standard Tolman skiff.

Twenty to 25 hp engines are appropriate for this skiff. I intend to power my prototype with a 20 hp Yanmar diesel with a conventional clutch and reversing gear. I had to buy a new gear which has a 1:1 ratio rather than using the stock 2:1 reduction gear designed to push displacement hulls. The Seabright tunnel permits only a small diameter prop, which must be run fast to get planing performance. This is an off-the-shelf item, however, and not too expensive. I expect to cruise at 17 mph. Economy will be outstanding as this engine burns 5/8 gph at about 1,900 rpms.

A new diesel setup like mine is about double the cost of an outboard of comparable power. My engine is used, but a new diesel has a long payback given the amount of hours the average boater drives per year. But for some there may be other choices, like diesels made in China, which are significantly cheaper. To my knowledge these are not yet marinized, but it’s perfectly possible to do this, as Robb White did with his Kubota, or have it done. Air-cooled gas engines are cheap although noisy. Making a drive system like Robb’s would save money and weight. It might even be possible to run a Seabright with an outboard in a well. But I think fuel savings alone aren’t necessarily the Seabright/Tolman’s biggest advantage. There’s a lot of thin water in Alaska—tide flats and rivers, and a skiff that draws only 6 or 7 inches has a tremendous attraction for a hunter and fisherman like me. And as a lot of boaters know, there’s a lot of other places on earth with shallow water, as well. So maybe the Seabright skiff’s time has come—again.

Just two footnotes to go along with this:

1- Robb White died last year but he had a web site that is still up and running. You can learn more about his Rescue Minor there, or just read his short stories if such writing interests you. Here are his Rescue Minor pages:

http://robbwhite.com/rescue.minor.html
http://robbwhite.com/rescue.minor.machinery.html

2- Renn's perspective comes from his location in the USA, and while most of it still makes sense in the Philippines there is one thing that may not. When he says "A new diesel setup like mine is about double the cost of an outboard of comparable power." ... he is talking about U.S. prices for NEW engines. In the Philippines most people would power their boats with cheap but perfectly functional surplus engines, and here a surplus diesel inboard will cost you less (usually much less) than a surplus outboard -- which makes the Tolman Seabright an even better bargain in the Philippines than in the USA.

Okay, signing off now -- before I set another record for the longest post ... :)

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
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www.bagacayboatworks.com
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Postby kuton » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:32 am

I've long been interested in Atkins designs, particularly his plywood inboard boats. But it seems to me that it's very difficult buying plans from his widow since she requires payment in cash. Is there any other way to buy any of the Atkins plans?
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I'll make the payment for you ...

Postby kengrome » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:31 am

Hi kuton,

I'm an American and I have a checking account at a U.S. bank. This means I can buy the plans for you simply by mailing Pat Atkin a check for the proper amount in U.S. Dollars. Just send me the equivalent funds in Philippine Pesos first, then I will place your plans order for you.

But how will you send me your Philippine Pesos?

I suppose I can give you my ChinaBank or BPI account number, then you can deposit your funds into one of these accounts. Before you do this, please email me privately so we can figure out exactly what everything will cost. I don't want this to cost you (or me) any more than it should ... :)

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
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www.bagacayboatworks.com

P.S. The same offer goes for anyone else here, whether for Atkin plans or the plans of other designers.
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Postby lncc » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:46 am

Hi guys. Sorry I've been out of it for awhile.

I received Tolman's addendum for the seabright a few weeks ago but I've not had time to study them in detail. Looks very promising.

Except for the fact that it is a monohull which as we all know is not popular at all with the local professionals, the Seabright has all the characteristics for Philippine use: shallow draft and beachable, use of abundant inboards. Marinization could be a problem, if really needed, however I'm sure local ingenuity is more than up to the task. Even the strange propellor will not be a problem.

Ken please keep us posted on the Seabright. I hope to start my Tollman sometime next year.
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Postby kuton » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:09 am

Ken,

Thanks for the offer. The hardest part is deciding on which boat to build. Let me study all of the Atkins plans again and I will communicate with you directly.

Kuton
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Postby kuton » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:11 am

BTW, the 3 cylinder Kubota that was used by White on his rescue minor is available here in the country surplus. They were used to power bus aircon units. Other brands are Yanmar and Mitsubishi. They are available in two or three cylinders. I'd us these anytime over Multicab engines, only because they are diesel, thus safer and more economical.

admin: Kubota and engine discussions continued here
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Postby kengrome » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:48 am

Hi lncc63,

I've put my Tolman Seabright Skiff up for sale so we shall see if anyone actually wants it. Yesterday an American saw my post in one of the Yahoo groups that cater to foreigners living in the Philippines. He is moving here in a couple weeks, so I suspect that he will buy it from me. If not I'm sure someone else will at the low price I'm asking ... :)

Since you'll be building your own T/S skiff you're welcome to send me a copy of the final building plans so I can check them for you. If Renn hasn't included my improved building suggestions for the tunnel hull portion you're in for a heap of trouble when you try to do it the way he suggests. Don't be surprised if you break the plywood and have to try again using a different technique, or end up with a wavy aft chine joint, or use gallons of epoxy filler in the garboard / tunnel scarf area, or discover some other 'interesting' challenges in this portion of your build!

I've done lots of composite work with bent and twisted panels over the years. This type of work is always challenging, but the instructions I got from Renn made me believe this is the first time he has tried it. In other words his instructions could be better. Nevertheless, once you get through this part the rest of the hull is easy to build and finish.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that this boat is ideal for Filipino fisherfolks, but it won't be easily accepted for decades because first they will have to get over their fear of going fishing in a boat without amas. This may happen some day, but I suspect it will take a lot of 'foreigners' using boats like these before it ever happens, and from what I have seen most foreigners are not into boating.

When I show my boat designs to the local fishemen they invariably say "Where are the amas?"... and when I say the boat doesn't need them they say "Why not use them anyways?". This kind of attitude bothers me because it illustrates how a professionally designed boat might be made unsafe by unsuspecting folks who were only trying to "make it better". Therefore ...

In an effort to accommodate the local widespread notion that boats should all have amas, I have designed a 'better' Philippine banca -- one that actually needs its amas -- and makes practical use of them for more than just form stability. My design calls for plywood and dimensional lumber (no carved logs) with epoxy and glass sheathing. It is engineered to be easily propelled with a very cheap 6.5 HP gas engine, not shown in these images but you can probably figure out where it will be installed in the boat:

Image

This design evolved from my study of the hydrodynamic performance of tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs. My idea here is to improve the performance, handling, economy, and especially the safety of the locally made fishing boat in such a way that they can be taken offshore in greater safety than has ever been possible before, even in relatively rough conditions, and reliably bring their passengers back home to their families safe and sound.

This boat might appear strange at first, but there are good reasons behind every feature it offers. If anyone wants to discuss this design (or any of my other designs) I will start a new thread so as to refrain from hijacking this one ... :)

Sincerely,
Ken Grome
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